沙之舟

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黑格尔对中国科学和哲学的看法


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昨天蜉蝣博登出了莱布尼兹对中国科学的赞誉之词。我在留言中问蜉蝣博西方对中国科学和哲学的态度从十七世纪的推崇到十八十九世纪的贬低的原因是什么。我以后有时间会提一下自己的想法。再此先把黑格尔的一些论点放在这里


A free, ideal, spiritual kingdom has here no place. What may be called scientific is of a merely empirical nature, and is made absolutely subservient to the Useful on behalf of the State – its requirements and those of individuals.


The nature of their Written Language is at the outset a great hindrance to the development of the sciences. Rather, conversely, because a true scientific interest does not exist, the Chinese have acquired no better instrument for representing and imparting thought.


As to the sciences themselves, History among the Chinese comprehends the bare and definite facts, without any opinion or reasoning upon them. In the same way their Jurisprudence gives only fixed laws, and their Ethics only determinate duties, without raising the question of a subjective foundation for them. The Chinese have, however, in addition to other sciences, a Philosophy, whose elementary principles are of great antiquity,


As to the other sciences, they are not regarded as such, but rather as branches of knowledge for the behoof of practical ends. The Chinese are far behind in Mathematics, Physics, and Astronomy, notwithstanding their quondam reputation in regard to them. 


They knew many things at a time when Europeans had not discovered them, but they have not understood how to apply their knowledge:


The Chinese have as a general characteristic, a remarkable skill in imitation, which is exercised not merely in daily life, but also in art. They have not yet succeeded in representing the beautiful, as beautiful; for in their painting, perspective and shadow are wanting. And although a Chinese painter copies European pictures (as the Chinese do everything else) correctly; although he observes accurately how many scales a carp has; how many indentations there are in the leaves of a tree; what is the form of various trees, and how the branches bend; – the Exalted, the Ideal and Beautiful is not the domain of his art and skill.


The Chinese are, on the other hand, too proud to learn anything from Europeans, although they must often recognize their superiority


关于孔子


Cicero gives us De Officiis, a book of moral teaching more comprehensive and better than all the books of Confucius. He is hence only a man who has a certain amount of practical and worldly wisdom — one with whom there is no speculative philosophy. We may conclude from his original works that for their reputation it would have been better had they never been translated. The treatise which the Jesuits produced is, however, more a paraphrase than a translation.


关于老子


Another passage in the same place has this sense, “He whom ye look at and do not see, is named I; thou hearkenest to him and hearest him not, and he is called Hi; thou seekest for him with thy hand and touchest him not, and his name is Wei. Thou meetest him and seest not his head; thou goest behind him and seest not his back.” These contradictory expressions are called the” chain of reason.” One naturally thinks in quoting these passages of ???? and of the African kingly name of Juba and also of Jovis. This I-hi-we? or I-H-W is further made to signify an absolute vacuity and that which is Nothing; to the Chinese what is highest and the origin of things is nothing, emptiness, the altogether undetermined, the abstract universal, and this is also called Tao or reason. When the Greeks say that the absolute is one, or when men in modern times say that it is the highest existence, all determinations are abolished, and by the merely abstract Being nothing has been expressed excepting this same negation, only in an affirmative form. But if Philosophy has got no further than to such expression, it still stands on its most elementary stage. What is there to be found in all this learning?

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  • 慕容青草
    老沙的建议很好。。。不过得向安博和浮游博建议。。。目前的未来俱乐部由他们俩主持。。。。。。
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  • 沙之舟
    慕容兄关于team work这个说法很有意思。

    墨子我现在读到的东西还比较支离破碎。恐怕得需要更多时间去理解消化。就以听到看到的些说法就是墨子对逻辑学上的研究很有成就,但由于后来秦之统一而未能继续下去。如果思考未来俱乐部的哲学家们能在这方面有所心得的话老沙愿意跟着学习一下。
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  • 慕容青草
    老沙:

    对墨子的东西没有研究。。。老沙能否专题介绍一下。。。。。。

    与过去一般的中西方文化对比的讨论不同,甚至与老沙这里介绍的老黑或蜉蝣介绍的莱布尼兹对中国文化的评论不同,万维的“中国是否有哲学”的讨论别出心裁地一上来就把“中国是否有哲学”作为了文化现象的历史答案来探讨。。。。虽然如我一再指出的,这种探讨一上来方向就错了,不过倒也有集中火力打歼灭战的效果,让大家把这块问题搞得透些也好。。。。。。。

    在这场讨论中,以兔子为主的一种颇为自相矛盾的偏颇是用中国的个体的哲学(老子)与西方几千年里发展的哲学进行比较,然后说中国从来没有过哲学。。。。。。这是莫名其妙的。。。这种莫名其妙的一个基本危害是误导大家搞错了方向。。。。

    如果是说中国没有发展出象西方这样的一整套哲学体系,那么就不是一个个体哲学的问题,而是一个社会群体哲学的问题,也就是今天大家习惯说的“team work”的问题,既然是team work的问题就应该集中来思考中国文化中有什么是不利于调动哲学的team work的因素。。。或者说西方文化中有什么是有利于调动哲学的team work的因素。。。。。。当我们把思路引到这一点上的时候,就不难看到中国历史上与西方相比在这样的四个方面不利于调动哲学的team work:

    1)宗教信仰
    2)语言文字
    3)学而优则仕的社会选择
    4)独立的文化界

    很明显其中的第二条,即语言的因素在今天已经基本上不存在了。。。过去几年里我在我的博客里不止一次地指出过汉字所具有的优势,但是与西方字母文字相比古代文言文显然不利于调动team work。。。而这点如今已经不存在了。。。。。。第三也已经大为改观。。。第四有所改进但是。。。第一目前是最关键的问题。。。。。。


    这里所提到的team work对于哲学的影响显然与人们通常所说的team work的含义不同,其实是这里的team work是个经济学的含义。。。。。。建议大家再去读一下我的“经济相对论导论(前言,第一章)”。。。如果觉得我的文章不值得一读,去读亚当斯密的文章也行-----不过说实话,我的文章更容易读:)
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  • 沙之舟
    pia兄。祖上的荣光我还真不知做子孙的有没有资格去以之自豪。就如同做子孙的没有资格去贬低祖上的成就一般。
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  • 沙之舟
    兔子对虚虚实实不感冒。你应该对崇有论里这段很赞同的么。 呵呵

    “盖有讲言之具者,深列有形之故,盛称空无之美。形器之故有征,空无之义难检,辩巧之文可悦,似象之言足惑,众听眩焉,溺其成说。”
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  • pia
    中国有许多问题,有过停滞,有过不思进取,等等。这都是事实,要反思,要发愤图强。

    中国也有过辉煌,有过神来之笔的智慧,有许多瑰宝,儿孙们可以自豪。

    三十年河东三十年河西,顶峰的时候不自大,低谷的时候不自卑。要的就是这份从容自信。个人是这样,民族也是这样。心态决定命运。
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  • 沙之舟
    慕容兄。你对墨子以及墨子的逻辑学有什么研究?
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  • 慕容青草
    同意老沙的观点。。。只不过我读关于中国古典文化的文章时,常常只关心与《道德经》相关的部分,其它部分就忽略了。。。。:)


    黑格尔指出的中国文化中的那些现象我认为还是主要归结于这样几个原因:

    1)宗教信仰;
    2)语言文字;
    3)学而优则仕的社会选择
    4)在前面几点的影响下的中国的独立学府及独立知识人的缺乏。。。。
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  • 沙之舟
    悲催呀。这个Chrome不知什么时候起经常自动refresh。刚刚写了一大段一下就没了。气愤至极。

    那就只好简单说几句了。休谟有句名言
    Nothing is more usual and more natural for those, who pretend to discover anything new to the world in philosophy and the sciences, than to insinuate the praises of their own systems, by decrying all those, which have been advanced before them.

    其实这个是现代社会知识发展的一个特点,即对前人的批评是后人前进的动力。或许我们可以称这是人的劣根性。但正是这一对传统的反叛才能造就人类知识的发展。

    科学家哲学家这些个头衔的含义其实一直是随时间而改变的。如果纯就知识和思辨能力而言,两千年前的科学家还远不及现在的中学生。要被称为什么“家”的门槛越来越高。如果置历史的上下文不够而以现代标准来衡量古人的话就如同刻舟求剑一般。

    然而如果我们反过来设想一下。我们自己是黑格尔,处在当时的大背景下我们会对中国哲学怎么看待?我们经常听到这么句话。what have you done for me lately? 这个是对现代社会人的思维的一个很好的反映。试想在当时中国日益赢弱落后于世界的情况下。我们自己会对中国哲学有什么好的印象么?再试想一下,从莱布尼兹到黑格尔,这期间中国在哲学和科学探索上有过什么新的发展么?有鉴于此,西方学者对中国的轻视也就不奇怪了。 尽管黑格尔对中国古代哲学的论断失之偏颇。但我原文中引用的他的许多观察对当时中国之现状还是入木三分的。
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  • 慕容青草
    兔子:

    我没搞懂你的话。。。。你是说你转载老几的谬论?

    老沙这里可是严肃的地方:)
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